Frontloading: Cutting through the Crap

Instructor: Rainsong
Date: December 9, 2017 (Saturday)

Rainsong
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

Rainsong
Welcome to another psionics seminar here at the social club.

ceahhettan
Whee!

Rainsong
Our topic for the evening, prompted by assorted idiocy and misinformation here and elsewhere, is “Frontloading: Cutting through the Crap.”

Rainsong
We’ll be talking about what it is, where the concept came from, what it’s used for, when it is to be avoided and why, and what its avoidance is used for.

ceahhettan
(That seems like the appropriate greeting for this, I think.)

Rainsong
I’m not going to be too careful about being diplomatic and polite, because this is actually one of the very few topics in psionics where there isn’t much variance, and it isn’t something you outgrow when you get past the noob stage.

Rainsong
(Sure. 😀 Wheee!)

Rainsong
The idea that only inexperienced Psions (or other energy workers, magic users, and so on) need to worry about it is flatly false, and is not a valid convention or opinion.

Rainsong
Claiming that it is even potentially valid spreads fluffy stupidity hither and yon.

Rainsong
And tonight we’re going to talk about why that is.

Rainsong
This may come across as a bit rant-y.

Rainsong
The sub-title should have given you prior warning.

Rainsong
I make no apology for this.

Rainsong
I also acknowledge that I’m preaching to the proverbial choir.

Rainsong
takes deep breath

Rainsong
But, first, let’s take a look at our Friendly Definition.

Rainsong
Actually, before we get to that, are there any questions or comments?

Lutasi
The best scanners I know are like super anal about frontloading

Rainsong
No doubt. And there are very good reasons for it.

Rainsong
What is “frontloading”, anyway? The word “frontloading” comes to us from the American military and intelligence projects that developed and employed remote viewing.

Rainsong
(Sure, we’ll use past tense here and pretend the projects were really discontinued in the mid-90s. Yes, of course we believe that. Cough cough.)

Rainsong
In his article “Frontloading – Is it Remote Viewing”, Dick Allgire over at the Hawaii Remote Viewing Guild says, “For those not familiar with the term frontloading, it quite simply means a remote viewer is told all or part of what constitutes the target prior to attempting to obtain data about that target using remote viewing.” (https://hrvg.org/newsletter/2001-03/frontloading.html)

Rainsong
I’m quoting him mostly because I haven’t come up with a better way to describe it.

Rainsong
By extension, “frontloading” refers to telling “all or part of what constitutes the target prior to attempting to obtain data about that target” to someone who is scanning or playing a telepathy game or the like.

Rainsong
Is frontloading always bad? Nope.

Rainsong
It’s not even uncommon or improper… in the right contexts.

Rainsong
When we play Shapes and Colours, we’re frontloading.

Rainsong
We know that the concepts being sent are going to be made up of geometrical shapes and colours. (Hence the name.)

ceahhettan
It gives some amount of context to input.

Lutasi
Can help distinguish the correct target when there are multiple possibilities

Rainsong
When we play Guess the Fruit, we’re frontloading.

Rainsong
We know that the target concepts are going to be food items loosely regarded as fruit. (Again, hence the name.)

Rainsong
That’s right, both of you.

Rainsong
When we’re scanning a construct or someone’s field, we’re frontloading. We know the thing we’re trying to look at, feel, or grok is a construct or a field.

Rainsong
When we’re running a practice RV target with a target pool of photographs, the fact that we know we’re using photographs as targets means we’re frontloading.

Rainsong
Running an operational RV session and the monitor says, “The target is an event. Describe the event”? That’s frontloading. The monitor and you as the viewer both know the target is an event.

Rainsong
You may be detecting a pattern here.

Rainsong
In case you’re wondering, that last example is valid. It’s used to save some time and effort in some kinds of operational remote viewing assignments, by narrowing down how much data is being recorded, according to Lyn Buchanan, for example. (http://www.crviewer.com/termdetails.php?selected=Frontloading)

Rainsong
And so, pretty much, as both of you were commenting.

Rainsong
And sure it’s possible to play Shapes and Colours without specifying you’re playing Shapes and Colours, but it will change the nature of the game, and also change the statistical analysis.

Rainsong
So why is frontloading a problem? Shapes and Colours is a “forced choice” game.

Rainsong
You already know what the options are. That makes the stats easy.

Rainsong
However, it also interferes with perception. What you are expecting to see or hear will influence what you actually do see or here.

Rainsong
It will also influence which bits of data you pay attention to.

Rainsong
If you’re waiting for a colour and a shape, you’re probably going to ignore impressions of “Milwaukee” and “demasiado” and scenes from Batman movies and snippets of the music the Sender’s listening to via Youtube.

Rainsong
That’s true in the non-psychical senses.

Rainsong
Entirely literate people mis-read things all the time, because they expected a different but similar word to appear.

Rainsong
Placebo effects interfere with efficacy studies, because the patients’/test-subjects’ expectations of what the supposed drug will do alters what they actually feel.

Rainsong
Experienced radiologists looking at lung radiographs/x-ray pictures failed to see images of gorillas that were added to the pictures, even when looking right at them.

ceahhettan
Wow.

Rainsong
(Yes, that actually happened. Yes, I’m serious.)

Rainsong
(References? Sure thing. Here are just a few of the first listings in a very quick literature search:

ceahhettan
(Link when you’re done, I want to wave that at some people who have gone “but how could they miss it!” in regards to medical stuff.)

Rainsong

Fadyn
(Accordion to a recent survey, replacing words with the names of musical instruments in a sentence often goes undetected.)

Rainsong

Rainsong
Working for a university sure has its perks.

Rainsong
Fadyn: Yep.

Simica
(lol accordian)

B.O.X.
Took me three tries to notice the accordian.

Scelana
Hehe

Fadyn
Then it’s a good thing you’re attending this lecture!

Rainsong
Excellent demonstration, yea?

ceahhettan
And there we have it, indeed.

Rainsong
In a related vein, have you ever seen any optical illusions that require special training in order to be able to see what the graphic actually looks like?

ceahhettan
(It took me two, but I’m blaming being fecking tireder than hell from work.)

ceahhettan
Yes.

Rainsong
Why do you think this requires special training to just see what’s on a paper or computer screen? (A quick search pulled up examples of such illusions at https://list25.com/25-incredible-optical-illusions/ and http://michaelbach.de/ot/index.html , for example)

Rainsong
And all of this is even more true in the psychical ones.

Rainsong
The reason for this is that the psychical senses are weaker generally, and more likely to be drowned out by “noise” and imagined responses.

ceahhettan
Specifically the Müller-Lyer illusion is a pain in the arse.

Rainsong
Anyone who dowses will be able to confirm that if you have a vested interest in getting a specific result, you’ll end up pushing the result to that “desired” answer.

Rainsong
Your “hope” or “wish” for a certain answer overpowers the relatively weak signal that the dowsing tool is being used to amplify

Rainsong
This is why professional dowsers consult someone else to dowse for them when they have a vested interest in the answer going a particular way.

Rainsong
It’s also the basis for the saying, “A physician who treats himself has a fool for a patient,” by the way. And why doctors are supposed to avoid treating immediate family members. They are “too close” to the problem, and that closeness sways their judgement.

Fadyn
(ceahhettan – that’s the line length with different facing arrows, right?)

Rainsong
Yeah, so, I could go on, but you’re probably getting the picture here.

ceahhettan
(Yes, it is.)

Rainsong
(I never see the illusion in that one. It’s one of the few that remained non-illusion after my stroke.)

Rainsong
Any other commentary or questions at this point?

ceahhettan
None here.

Fadyn
None

Simica
Nope

B.O.X.
Nope

Rainsong
So how does that mean that it’s not just for noobs to worry about?

Rainsong
There are experienced remote viewers who use frontloading to various degrees, and there is ongoing debate – sometimes friendly, sometimes rather less so – about how much frontloading is acceptable in operational conditions.

Rainsong
I’m sure you all know the main players here. You have Joe McMoneagle on one side (firmly against) and Ed Dames on the other (firmly for), and the gamut in between.

Rainsong
Hmm. Who has the better track record there?

Rainsong
stuffs the snark back down … If for no other reason than one of my primary RV instructors was a student of Major Dames. The guy is literally a professional. Seriously. He makes his living by doing remote viewing. And even he favours avoidance of frontloading.

Fadyn
I don’t recongize Ed Dames’s name, so that says something right there.

Fadyn
To be fair I haven’t taken any professional classes.

Rainsong
He worked at Fort Meade in that unit for a while, but his version of what he did there and everyone else’s version of what he did there are slightly at variance.

Rainsong
You know how it goes…

Fadyn
Of course. I suppose he has fewer books than McMoneagle? That’s why I recognize his name, though I haven’t read any.

Rainsong
Dames has lots of books and videos and the like. and has taught courses for years. He claims (or at least has claimed) to have 100% accuracy in all his RV sessions. Interpret that as you will…

Fadyn
Sounds like bullshit. Maybe I heard that and forgot I was avoiding him.

Rainsong
Any claims of 100% accuracy in RV are bullshit.

Rainsong
Anyway… It has recently come to my attention that certain teachers of psionics and related disciplines have decided to tell their students and members of their online communities that full frontloading is only a problem for inexperienced psions, who use “frontloading” as an excuse for their ineptitude.

Rainsong
And that, further, because they (these teachers) as so much more skillful that they can run a field-scan or operational RV session or what-have-you with such extremely high levels of competence that frontloading is not at all an issue for them.

Rainsong
cough cough Can we say “Dunning-Kruger effect”, boys and girls? cough cough

Rainsong
(Wikipedia’s as good a place as any for basic information about it, if you’ve never heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Rainsong
And for more information, a few academic articles:

Rainsong

Rainsong
Worse, they imply to their students that said students also ought to be quite happy to cold-read based on detailed frontloading, instead of actually, you know, doing a real psychical scan.

Rainsong
You want to do cold-reading tricks? Have fun; fill your boots.

Rainsong
It’s actually a useful skill, for a number of purposes ranging from stage performance to getting less-than-willing or less-than-aware “sources” to talk in espionage assignments.

Rainsong
But don’t pass it off as real scanning in a psionics community.

Rainsong
Teaching is not an easy skill to acquire, and lots of perfectly sincere folks end up not teaching effectively or well. That’s as true in chatrooms as it is in universities and secondary schools. My complaint is in what these idiots are teaching. Not how they are going about it. (I don’t know or care what their pedagogical methods are.)

Rainsong
An obvious question arises here, seeing that I’m a psionics instructor:

Rainsong
Am I just ranting because I’m personally offended by these nonsense claims from idiots in certain nearby chatrooms and such?

Rainsong
Yes, I’m personally offended that they are spreading crap.

Rainsong
I’m not offended at the idea that I might not be all that good at scanning on the grounds that I prefer to limit frontloading. Most of you have seen the results of at least a couple of my long-distance/across-the-Net field-scans in the chatroom.

Rainsong
I can usually tell you roughly what the field looks like, the condition of the main Shield, and whether there are clumps that ought to be cleared for health reasons. If I pay close enough attention, I can typically find parasites and constructs attached to the field.

Rainsong
Pretty basic stuff.

Rainsong
It’s normally adequate for my purposes, but I don’t scan with the excellent and detailed results that several other members of the community routinely produce

Rainsong
So if the fluff-dudes think I’m a noob or incompetent or both as a result, I’m fine with that.

Rainsong
(If you’ve been following along closely, you may be able to deduce my opinion of their expertise, in broad strokes.)

Rainsong
Yeah, I’m pissed.

Rainsong
Any questions or commentary at this point?

Simica
Nope

Fadyn
Maybe they’ll grow out of it when their balls drop?

Rainsong
We can only hope.

Rainsong
😀

Lutasi
Frankly people who do detailed scans confuse me a touch. It seems like a hell of a lot of effort.

Rainsong
Certainly so. And there are times when it is useful to expend that effort.

B.O.X.
Seems like the people in question expend the effort to make a point (to others? To themselves?) I appreiate modesty myself…

Rainsong
For example, veterinary energy-medicine consultations are very detailed, and the results are relayed to a veterinarian, to work from. Many of those energy-medicine practitioners deliberately limit their own knowledge of anatomy, so as not to interfere with their impressions, incidentally.

Simica
Also depends if others are wishing another to go deeper etc

Rainsong
And some very excellent scanners who do the in-depth thing, do it as a service to others. I have no quarrel with them.

Fadyn
B.O.X. I think the point is they’re not actually doing anything other than claiming their right without really scanning

Fadyn
They want the prestige without working for it

Rainsong
The ones I’m ranting about, I definitely suspect of exactly that, Fadyn. For a number of reasons.

Lutasi
more than a few highly detailed scanners are just super into self improvement

B.O.X.
Right. Even if it were a real scan, it loses credibility in my mind if the intention is to gain prestige.

Lutasi
#weneedtogodeeper

B.O.X.
Not that there aren’t examples of wholesome prestige-seeking…

Simica
Self improvement is a huge one for myself currently.

Rainsong
Yeah, I’ve been scanned by people who start off by commenting on how big and powerful my field is. Anyone who’s ever actually looked at my field would know it’s pretty small and weak, even at the best of times.

Rainsong
But I’m telekinetic, so I must be big and powerful, right?

ceahhettan
Yeah. Also, I mean, so. I learned cold-reading as a teenager. I worked in an entertainment circuit, cold-reading is a useful skill both for “fortunetelling” (in heavy quotes) and just getting people to buy shit from your booth.

Rainsong
Cold-reading’s an excellent skill in the entertainment world. As well as espionage. Actually, the two fields often overlap.

ceahhettan
On the other hand there’s a super-huge gap in my mind at least that I keep there, on purpose, between scanning and cold-reading. If you know both skills then the thing is to maintain that they’re separate.

Rainsong
Yep

B.O.X.
Could I get a rough definition of cold-reading compared to scanning? Bit confused.

Simica
Body language

ceahhettan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

ceahhettan
(In which Wikipedia’s actually a fairly decent bit on this.)

Rainsong
It’s a combination of picking up on body-language, what the person has said, and their appearance/clothing/accessories for details… and combining that with generalized knowledge that applies to a lot of people.

B.O.X.
Ooooh. So cold-reading is like playing Sherlock Holmes. I do that almost all of the time.

Rainsong
Thanks, Ceah 😀

ceahhettan
Welcome.

Rainsong
That’s the idea, B.O.X.

B.O.X.
Not at a competent level, but I do some of it

Rainsong
The more you do, the better you get at it.

Simica
Everyone does it on some level or another

B.O.X.
Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me

Rainsong
It’s all good. Further questions or commentary before we continue?

ceahhettan
Hm. None here.

Rainsong
(And in case you’re wondering, yes, I prepared the bulk of the lecture ahead of time. I’m not really the world’s fastest typist.)

Simica
:thumbsup:

Lutasi
I just assumed you freestyled those articles and citations

Rainsong
😀

ceahhettan
Also being a fast typist doesn’t necessarily help anyway. It doesn’t matter how fast I can type if I can’t figure out what I want to say.

Rainsong
So true.

ceahhettan
Just saying, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. (I regularly reach speeds of 85-90 wpm when I’m typing longer pieces… right up until the writer’s block hits.)

Scelana
Writer’s block really sucks

ceahhettan
Anyway.

B.O.X.
I have a very high wpm, when I’m not on this phone…

Rainsong
Yea, phone-typing is typically slower. All that aside, why do the Remote Viewing protocols go to such lengths to avoid frontloading?

Rainsong
When you’re doing an RV session, typically you’d like to do well, right?

Rainsong
For the viewer, “well” means that you stay in structure and follow the protocols.

Rainsong
However, for the monitor and tasker, “well” usually implies the acquisition of some kind of useful data.

Rainsong
And the viewer is aware that data is sought.

Rainsong
This, in itself, is a bit of a problem: the viewer is often motivated to want to produce “good” data, whether for reasons of pride, self-esteem, sense of duty, shiggles, impressing a client, maintaining your unit’s funding, or whatever.

Rainsong
Desiring “good” data can get in the way of staying in structure, thus sabotaging the viewer’s own efforts. There are ways to get around this, baked into the protocols.

Rainsong
Because taking human nature into account in military procedures is often a good idea…

Rainsong
(There are no such safe-guards in impromptu chatroom field-scans, and many a scan has been undermined by the scanner’s desire to impress the other folks in the room or by what the scanner believes about the person being scanned.)

Rainsong
Viewers get some imaginary and otherwise off-target “data” in amongst the real stuff.

Rainsong
This can result from being slightly off target, and it can result from the conscious mind butting in and trying to be “helpful” by providing logical guesses and analyses.

Rainsong
It is a rare session in which all the recorded data accurately reflects the target.

Rainsong
Again, the protocols are designed to allow for this.

Rainsong
In addition to avoiding the situation of “just sitting back and guessing about the target”, avoidance of frontloading serves another purpose: it helps establish the level of accuracy of the data in that session.

Rainsong
How? Typically, the tasker has some information about the target. How much will vary widely, but there’s something known about it.

Rainsong
Let’s take a friendly hypothetical example to illustrate this:

Rainsong
(Story-time 😀 )

ceahhettan
(Yay!)

Rainsong
Tasker-dude is a civil engineer, and he and his team have been working on an assessment of a suspension bridge.

Rainsong
The bridge is fifteen years old, and they are doing a check to see if it needs more than standard maintenance.

Rainsong
This is a difficult task, and the consequences of messing up are pretty serious.

Rainsong
In addition to the standard ways to evaluate the bridge’s condition, he decides to contract with a remote viewer to take a look at the bridge.

Rainsong
His brother took an RV course a few years ago, and knows someone who takes on such contracts.

Rainsong
With the brother’s help, he puts together a tasking assignment, engages the services of an RV firm to run some viewing sessions.

Rainsong
Nothing out of the ordinary, there.

Rainsong
The contract is accepted, the viewers and monitors do their thing, and we skip ahead to the analysis of the viewing sessions.

Rainsong
In one of the datasheets, there are lots of indicators of “manmade”, “structure”, “massive”, “sweeping”, “movement” and the like.

Rainsong
The sketches are consistent with a bridge.

Rainsong
And there’s a focus on a particular part of the structure – perhaps a section of cable.

Rainsong
The client could be informed that perhaps his team should take a closer look at that section of cable.

Rainsong
Those “bridge-like” indicators are a pretty good hint that the viewer’s on target.

Rainsong
And if the viewer’s on target, there a decent chance of usable data being involved.

Rainsong
Let’s pretend that one of the other sessions was a miss. Everyone has misses sometimes.

Rainsong
The trick is for the analysts to figure out which times they are

Rainsong
The datasheet for this miss might have gone down a semi-literal rabbit hole: warm, fuzzy, organic, alive, concealed, brown, small…

Rainsong
The analyst would almost immediately see that the data was not consistent with a bridge, and so it would be pretty clear that it’s a miss.

Rainsong
Contrast that with a session done in which the monitor and the viewer both know they are looking for possible problems in the structural integrity of a suspension bridge.

Rainsong
Of course the bulk of the reported “data” is going to be related to bridge-stuff.

Rainsong
But it will be much more difficult to determine which guesses about the potential problems are accurate and which are based on whatever information the viewer already has accumulated about bridges generally… and whatever presuppositions the monitor has, also.

Rainsong
TL:DR Working without frontloading makes the job easier

Rainsong
It can be harder on the ego, because misses can be spectacularly off-base.

Rainsong
But those misses are easier to identify.

Rainsong
And accurate results are so much more satisfying.

Rainsong
(And in RV, the viewer’s only supposed to be concerned about staying in structure, anyway. The rest of it is the monitor’s and analyst’s problem.)

Rainsong
(All online references retrieved during late November and early December of 2017.)

Rainsong
So, any questions or comments?

Simica
Nope

Rainsong
Thanks for participating, everyone.

Simica
Thank you for giving the lecture!

Rainsong
😀

Scelana
Thxies for the lecture

Rainsong
😀

ceahhettan
Thank you! Super-neat to actually put a perspective and some more words to “frontloading is often bad” rather than just a bunch of people huffing and puffing.

Rainsong
I’m glad if it helped clear up some of the details.

Rainsong
(And I hope it was sufficiently pointy.)

B.O.X.
Just the right amount of pointy

Lutasi
if you give your brain a framework to fit things into it will try super hard to fit everything into it and thus avoid doing any work

Rainsong
Thanks

Rainsong
It’s true

Fadyn
Sorry, I got pulled away. I do have a question

Lutasi
brains are industrious lazy

Rainsong
Fadyn: No problem. Go ahead?

Fadyn
Obviously you’re against frontloading in general, but what about in the case of getting someone interested enough to look?

Fadyn
For example, if I just go into a chat room and go “Scan me!” I’m likely to be ignored, and for good reason. But “Can someone scan me as I’m feeling sick” might actually get a response and if multiple hits agree that I need to go to a doctor I’m more likely to.

Rainsong
I’m not against frontloading being used under the right conditions.

Fadyn
(Please nobody actually trust a chat room as qualified medical advice, it’s not a good example)

Simica
Me personally. I wouldnt scan that. Because automatically I want to look for a cause or if there is something

Fadyn
Simica – and that’s why I asked. But at the same time, I’m not likely to want to put forth any effort for random people tagging random shit.

ceahhettan
I mean so to be fair, “can someone scan me I’m feeling sick” would more likely get me to chat and employ some of those aforementioned cold-reading techniques.

Rainsong
I’d scan it, looking for clumps that might be cleared, or breeches that could be fixed. But it wouldn’t give enough information to know if a doctor’s visit or a trip to the ER were warranted.

ceahhettan
But probably wouldn’t actually get me to scan a person, unless I know them previously to the initial interaction.

Fadyn
I did say it was a bad example. The primary point is that a random scan request or random tag gives no incentive to scan.

ceahhettan
Hey, nothing wrong with bad examples as long as we can pick them apart a bit.

Lutasi
I would not scan it and would tell you to rub some dirt in it and to stop being such a bitch

Simica
Lol

Fadyn
Put some tussin on it?

Fadyn
😀

Rainsong
As Ceah said, nothing wrong with a bad example. A similar example would be a request for a scan of someone’s Shield, looking for flaws.

Rainsong
That’s frontloaded, entirely, but it’s still a reasonable request.

Simica
Scanning a construct

Rainsong
nods Same idea.

Simica
ES scan vs Empathy scan.

ceahhettan
Simica, hm?

ceahhettan
Not quite sure I grok what you mean there by empathy scan, but I’m also super tired and so I’m not sure I have all of my brain cells.

Simica
Different types of scans without giving details as to what you are looking for

ceahhettan
Ah.

Fadyn
But any limitation on the scan (empathy versus energy) does frontload the scanner. It’s not as frontloading as asking for a shield scan, but it still does it.

Simica
But at least then it is focused in a certain area. As rainsong gave examples of with telepathy practice

Rainsong
Ideally, to avoid frontloading, you’d task it as though it were an RV session. Then, if the shield scan is describing a Monet painting, you’d know it’s a miss. And if you’re describing layers of forcefields and energetic shells, there’s a decent chance of being the right target.

Rainsong
But that’s often more effort than it’s worth.

Rainsong
And in Shapes and Colours, and similar, it complicates the game.

Forest_Horns
I think the biggest issue is… ask for a shield scan have then tell you what it does and if there is flaws…. don’t ask “can you scan my mirror shield that has a marshmallow layer on it to see if it got damaged in the last fireball tossing contest?”

Rainsong
nods

Simica
Lol

Fadyn
Don’t you mean a smores layer? 😀

Rainsong
😀

Rainsong
There are advantages, if you want a frontloaded scan, to asking someone who’s not concerned that a miss would damage their reputation. That can go to almost any part of the scale in terms of skill and experience.

Rainsong
I might be puzzled by a particularly bad run of scans or telepathy practices or what-have-you, but it makes no nevermind about my reputation or pride.

Simica
I personally dont mind people asking for types of scans. It allows a focused area vs just a general all over the place. Check list things to go through and possibly find what they are looking for

Rainsong
Someone whose pride and joy is their scanning ability would be under more pressure to “perform”, as it were.

Rainsong
nods

Rainsong
And as long as you know the pitfalls to work with or around, a frontloaded scan isn’t necessarily bad, per se. It is corrupted, though. And while that sounds bad, it’s just “what is”

Fadyn
Simica and ceahhetan, you both said you wouldn’t scan in the example. In that case what is more likely to incentivise you to scan?

Simica
Curiosity

Fadyn
I’m sure that Salty is in the veteran role for a reason, which makes me think getting someone that knows what they’re doing to help is less likely than getting another newb.

ceahhettan
Possibly? For me it’s largely a matter of “do I know this person already”, and then there’s a secondary bit of “how curious am I”; follow that with “what else am I doing”.

Fadyn
So anyone new is pretty much fucked.

ceahhettan
Somewhere in that equation there is a point where my answer is “yeah, sure”, but not as often mostly simply due to the constraints that my really real life puts on me.

Simica
Not necessarily

Simica
Imprinted energy in the question generally could peak some interest for me

ceahhettan
In my case often I have five to ten minutes of internet at a time when I’m working, and trucking is a rather nontraditional schedule in general, and so that’s not an amount where I’m often going to be able to give it an actual look.

ceahhettan
Let’s pretend this happens on a day where I’m at home. Then it’s more likely.

ceahhettan
If I’m sitting around a truck stop waiting for a load that picks up in three or four hours, again, more likely.

Fadyn
Even if it’s someone that joins the channel immediately before asking? Someone that you’ve never met before

ceahhettan
Curiosity peaks and wanes.

Rainsong
It would be strange for someone’s first interaction in the chatroom to be a request for a scan.

Simica
Mhm

Fadyn
The reason I thought of the question was due to having heard people complain about others doing just that.

Rainsong
Could probably count the non-troll incidents on one hand, since the turn of the century.

ceahhettan
I’ll be generous and say two hands.

Simica
Yah, that is another aspect. The whole.. ‘I was just testing you’ circus show deal

Fadyn
tl;dr – be interesting but vague and don’t sound like a troll. high order 😀

Simica
Lol

Rainsong
I count the “prove psi exists” crowd in with the trolls

ceahhettan
And there was a point in time, while I was in college and on IRC all day, where I did occasionally scan anyone who went “scan me”.

ceahhettan
However, I was in college and on IRC all day, I didn’t have other things pressing at my attention.

Simica
I enjoy when a person actually ‘shows’ me something to scan. Field etc. Something I can grab to vs having to actually dive and pull. If that at all makes sense lol.

ceahhettan
Yes it definitely does.

Simica
Show me something to peak my interest and curiosity. Comes off as high and mighty. And I don’t mean it to. But the more curious I am. The more I am willing to go ‘deeper’ into it.

ceahhettan
I mean it makes sense to me, though.

Rainsong
nods Certainly.

Fadyn
Follow up question – part of the variable requirements was already knowing the person. I assume just those that lurk but never interact aren’t going to meet that, but do you have a normal “level” of knowing someone that’s needed?

Fadyn
(Sorry, this isn’t really lecture related anymore, I’m just curious)

Rainsong
To be motivated to put forth the effort, you mean?

Fadyn
yes

Simica
Lurking can have its benefits. Yet again, for me it depends on the energy imprinted behind the question.

Fadyn
That wasn’t really the question. Barring an “interesting” request, how well do you have to know the person to consider it?

KiraMoravvi
Heya

Rainsong
In my case, it’s more a question of how much energy (in the more normal sense) I have. If I’m only barely upright – which happens more often than I’d like – I’m not going to expend oomph for something that isn’t urgent. Because doing so might mean I’ll be confined to bed for a week. If the situation’s urgent enough, the project might be worth dealing with the consequences. But just “check my construct progress” is not.

Rainsong
Hi, Kira

Simica
Sorry, my point was. Myself dont mind if its someone I don’t know.

Rainsong
If I’m relatively healthy, I’ll field requests from almost anyone who isn’t being a fuckwit.

KiraMoravvi
I’m a bit late to the conversation, am I right the subject is about front loading?

Simica
Yes. Essentially lol got slightly off topic lol

Fadyn
Ok.

Fadyn
Lecture ended. I hijacked the channel.

Rainsong
It’s not a problem. We’re still more or less on the subject, or at least the closely related issue of scanning.

Simica
Agreed

Rainsong
And yes, the seminar/rant topic is frontloading, specifically.

ceahhettan
For me, there’s definitely the “am I upright” consideration as well.

KiraMoravvi
When I ask people to sense things, I deliberately omit details (e.g. Asking to scan /sense »this «

ceahhettan
But the basic level of knowing probably requires having had conversations where I interacted with them?

ceahhettan
Talking to people a few times, at least one time? It’s just really harder to make myself give enough of a damn otherwise.

Fadyn
so not ocmpletely new, not just a lurker. not a high bar, yes?

ceahhettan
Not terribly high, usually.

ceahhettan
Mind you the grumpier, tireder, more in physical rl pain or whatever, the higher that bar gets?

Rainsong
Kira: That works. If it’s an “am I upright” situation, I’ll indicate that if it isn’t absolutely urgent to please ask someone else, or to wait until I’m healthy enough to field it.

ceahhettan
Rainsong is usually nicer than I am on that bit.

Rainsong
(The urgency also adds frontloading, but there are times that can’t be helped)

KiraMoravvi
I’m generally really busy, and don’t feel comfortable answering random peoples requests

KiraMoravvi
I get performance anxiety

ceahhettan
Brb, cat demanding attention.

Rainsong
Kitteh!

ceahhettan
And by demanding I mean digging his claws into my shoulder.

KiraMoravvi
Mine is jusy demanding my coat as a bed

Rainsong
Careful and considered application of claw is an important form of communication.

ceahhettan
Truth.

KiraMoravvi
Some situations ive been in though, generally frontloading is somewhat impossible to do

Rainsong
One of our cats will sit and grin at me, projecting “Wake up and cuddle me, human!” vibes. If that doesn’t work, she taps my face with her paw.

KiraMoravvi
Like tracking a persons every feeling and emotions and then chatting to them about it later in the day

Rainsong
The fact that you’re tracking a person at all, is technically frontloading

ceahhettan
Data comes up and demands a bit of attention for about five minutes and then that’s enough and he goes back to doing his own thing.

KiraMoravvi
Generally its an emotion thats come out of nowhere, followed by a?pattern? That I associate with a person that helps me identify them. I consider frontloading as psychological priming before a request to sense. If information comes without any physical prompt, the I dont think it can be considered priming

Rainsong
Ah, yes. Sorry; I misunderstood what you meant you were doing.

ShadowRain
For what it’s worth (probably unpopular opinion), i would rather know why someone wants the scan, for example if they aren’t feeling well somehow, and I prefer to know what general area to look in. A person’s system is huge and there’s so many things to look at. If something is badly off, then sure that will probably highlight right away as an issue, but otherwise a cursory glance will probably get you a sorry I don’t see anything wrong. If it’s specifically your little toe though, then I don’t have to waste time looking at your head. If you’re concerned frontloading wise, then you can tag where the pain/issue is like hey this hurts and then I can just look for the tag instead of giving your entire system a patdown.

Simica
For myself, I have a hard time giving scans to people that dont know their systems. Because what I see, isn’t necessarily true (highly skeptical of my own scans) and I would never want to have a person take my word as ‘law’ so to speak. With in hand of that. It is nice if a person does know themselves because it allows me better feedback. If I am on track or not.

Rainsong
Hi, ShadowRain. Nothing wrong with that. Frontloading isn’t inherently bad, after all. It just introduces a certain combination of complications.

ShadowRain
Hi Rainsong 🙂 nods very true.

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