Instructor: Rainsong & Wayfarer
Date: November 30, 2019 (Saturday)
Seminar: Topic: Psionics and Ceremonial Magic: How they can feed into each other (discussion seminar, suggested by Azum’ran) — Saturday, 30 November, 2019 at 6:30pm/1830hr New York Time — text format in the PSC #lecture room (Discord) — Instructor: Rainsong, probably — Search LECTURE104
Rainsong: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen
Rainsong: Welcome to another seminar here at the social club
Rainsong: Our topic for the evening is how psionics and ceremonial magic can feed into each other
Rainsong: As I’m sure you know, there are people who practice both. (I am not one of them, however, and my knowledge of ceremonial magic is relatively weak)
Rainsong: Therefore, I’m not going to be giving a lecture on the topic. That would be stupid. And we try not to be stupid here
Rainsong: Instead, we’re going the “moderated discussion” route with this… as long as there are enough interested people.
Rainsong: If not, we’ll have a class on a different topic, and bump this to a different day
Rainsong: Any questions?
Wayfarer: lmao seems pretty well uh understood there I guess
Wayfarer: I guess I should first ask parameters of the discussion because “ceremonial magic” is actually a very particularly niche thing but it’s often used more broadly to refer to just general sorcery or anything involving ritual at all.
Rainsong: Azum’ran didn’t really indicate, when they suggested the topic.
Wayfarer: @Azum’ran where you at get in here 😡
Rainsong: I was thinking in terms of Golden Dawn and the like, for Western magic, along with some of the standard Catholic stuff like Calling the Quarters/Witnesses and formal warding
Rainsong: As for Eastern ceremonial magic, I know even less
Wayfarer: It’s not so much a thing I think
Wayfarer: At least, it’s not a meaningful distinction in a lot of Eastern traditions
Rainsong: I’m opposed to the kind of summoning of demons that one sees in many “Solomonic” grimoires, on moral grounds. I have no problem with the idea of a commercial transaction with such beings, if they are willing, but I definitely draw the line at torture
Wayfarer: Similarly not a fan of those methods. I usually describe it as being a cop approach. And I’m not a fan of cops!!!!
Wayfarer: That said there are a handful of traditional Goetic demons that will only respond to that form of summoning. Not sure if it’s like, a fetish thing for them or what, but they don’t do transactional work, you gotta force them.
Rainsong: By contrast, letting the local spirits know that whiskey and cake is available if they’d like to show up and discuss terms (or just hang out, depending on what’s going on)… I’m okay with that
Rainsong: If those individual demons are into that kind of thing, I’ll leave them to it
Wayfarer: On a certain level a lot of the Goetic summoning stuff is basically a stop and frisk and the “authority” you’re borrowing is legit but you have to be able to use it. Some demons won’t bother to check your badge number, some will, and you have to be ready to back it up. Bigger spirits will obviously be more inclined to call on bullshit.
Rainsong: I’d expect that many of the bigger spirits are also less inclined to bother humouring noobs, in which case someone else out for shiggles might impersonate the bigger spirit
Azum’ran: @Wayfarer sorry I was sleep hello
Rainsong: Hi, Azum’ran
Wayfarer: Oddly enough they’re not, if you do the things right they tend to show up and humor you regardless. At the very least they send a mook to check it out.
Wayfarer: Done correctly it’s not you making the request, it’s whatever angelic force works with that particular demon, so you have a bit of oomph behind it regardless. The clever ones will lawyer with you but a lot of the time it’s just not worth it. Also, generally speaking, the Solomonic style work is done to get them there and get a pact sorted, at which point they just add the pact to their to-do list. Since spirits of that magnitude aren’t really bound by space or time it’s not a problem.
Rainsong: “Hmmm, let’s see: Lunch with Ba’al, set off Mount McKinnley, fetch some kind of hydrocarbon-powered cart for the idiot in Florida, pick up the dry-cleaning…”
Azum’ran: When I requested ceremonial magic, what i had in mind was the broader concept, where one makes use of ritual processes and symbolism to tbe end of metaphysical interaction
Azum’ran: Which from some ranges of perspective could be thought of as just using pomp and circumstance in place of proper mindset but
Rainsong: Hmmm, if you take that broadly enough, some of psionics is ceremonial, in that ritual processes are technically involved. As an example, a couple of the guys who worked at Fort Meade would listen to ‘acid rock’ music to prepare their minds for a viewing session. That’s technically a ritual
Rainsong: If using ‘pomp and circumstance’ works for you, use it. It’s not hurting anyone, and it gets the job done. For some people, it really helps. For others (like myself, for instance) it tends to get in the way
Rainsong: Being allergic to ecclesiastical incense doesn’t help, either
Wayfarer: So ritual magic more broadly then rather than strictly ceremonial magic. To me, ceremonial magic is what we would do in a Masonic temple or what Golden Dawn is doing and so on. You usually have a lodge and a much larger ritual involving a lot of people in specific roles to accomplish whatever thing.
Wayfarer: The quick and easy test would be “are there robes or does a guy have to get blindfolded at any point???” lmao
Wayfarer: “Are dudes wearing formal dress for some reason?”
Wayfarer: But more broadly ritual magic makes for a broader discussion. Hell, Cosimano radionics boxes are literally just a form of altar.
Rainsong: Precisely so
Rainsong: And the maths and knob-turning are rituals unto themselves
Wayfarer: His whole thing was that the symbols of ceremonial or ritual magic didn’t seem to click to people in the modern era quite the same way that knobs and switches and dials do.
Rainsong: And at the same time, he freely acknowledges that some people (himself included) sometimes just use symbols on paper… and sometimes not even that
Rainsong: The big complicated devices are for people who need big complicated devices, and that’s what suits them
Rainsong: He has a youtube video about it
Wayfarer: I think the problem that a lot of people have is that they assume that because you can work psionically via ritual magic, that’s what all ritual magic is.
Rainsong: All poodles are dogs. Not all dogs are poodles.
Azum’ran: Also sorry for not really being able to contribute presently, my toddling nephew is visiting
Rainsong: Some people psionically charge ritual tools even when there’s no reason to do so… just for the shiggles, I guess
Rainsong: (I’m totally guilty of charging random stones just to see if anyone notices…)
Rainsong: Greetings to toddling nephew-person
Rainsong: Charging children’s toys with impressions of love and big hugs can be good, too
Chirotractor: I dunno.. swinging a wand around
Chirotractor: it’s hard not to get your juice flowing through it sometimes
Rainsong: Good point
Rainsong: There’s such a strong mental connection between “wand” and “oomph” that it doesn’t take much to get that moving
ceahhettan: Evening folks.
ceahhettan: Reading up.
Rainsong: Hi, Ceah
ceahhettan: Hi. If I am delayed typing blame the cat.
Rainsong: She is being feline?
ceahhettan: Yes. Anyway. My own largest amount of experience with ceremonial stuff is Judaic, followed by some adjacency to folks in various ceremonial groups at times over the years. My own practise is highly ritualised but I wouldn’t call it ceremonial by far.
ceahhettan: I like the pomp and circumstance, frankly. But I’d argue that it’s not in place of proper mindset.
ceahhettan: As much as a tool to get to that mindset.
Rainsong: Since the question was how they can feed into each other, I’d think that having a degree of competence in psionics would be advantageous for adding oomph to other magical workings
Rainsong: Some magic-users strangely have trouble getting the ‘stuff’ going
Chirotractor: Something something dick joke
Rainsong: Anything else to discuss on this topic this evening?
ceahhettan: I’m not sure anywhere to start just because I have so many different things that could be pertinent. I’m happy to keep discussing if other people have questions or ideas or topics to consider.
ceahhettan: My thoughts have circled back around to some of the talmudic writings on magic, and the distinctions or lack of distinctions made between magic and miracles, between what one should and shouldn’t do, etc.
Rainsong: Yea, just because a person can do something, doesn’t mean they should
ceahhettan: Also the other thing that’s interesting about Jewish magic stuff and maybe might be echoed in some of the xtian and catholic? is the bit where magic often uses many of the same exact wordings as liturgy.
Rainsong: It’s true. The Christian-based ceremonial stuff borrows heavily from the Mass and the Hours
ceahhettan: I thought as much but didn’t want to make assumptions. (and then of course Gardner et al borrow from all of it.)
Rainsong: Gardner borrowed anything that worked
Rainsong: …and some that didn’t
ceahhettan: Yeah lol.
Azarea: re interleaving of psionics and ceremonial magic, I personally find it quite useful in a lot of rituals to notice the energy currents a certain thing is causing and to pull on them to do things
Azarea: particularly loading sacraments, drawing spirits to their podests/triangles, closing a circle, banishing, and so on
Azarea: anything where you’re causing some metaphysical movement, psionics gives you a great framework to sense and do that movement
Rainsong: Being able to see what you’re doing is often useful, in many fields, I think
Azarea: it’s less a sight thing for me tbh, psionics is worse at telling me what’s going on than symbolic divination or internal dialogue for me personally, and more a muscle thing
Azarea: “draw the energy of the spirit into the vessel” psionics gives you a way to do that, directly
Azarea: with a minimum of confusion around visualizing or not
Rainsong: Quite so. I should have said “sense/detect”, rather than “see”, as such
Azarea: it also synergizes well with vortex-based rituals
Azarea: or any kind of “construct this thing in midair as a focus for the ritual”
Azarea: the part I have trouble with with psionics is factoring out all the different tastes and essences from things to discrete energies
Rainsong: hmmm. True
Rainsong: As for the discrete energies, I imagine that’s largely a matter of practice
Azarea: at least the way I understood it, it leads a bit to treating all energy as a kind of ethereal liquid that moves around
Rainsong: waggles hand in a yes-no gesture Some people do, and some don’t. It’s possible to ignore the differences between energy-stuffs and be quite proficient in psionics, so distinguishing them is optional.
Rainsong: If your other practices are improved by distinguishing same, it would make sense to take note of the differences
Azarea: I do
Azarea: I build collections of different ones, even, because this is so crucial for my work
Azarea: it’s just really hard sometimes, because the image of energy is already a bit of a cast
Azarea: eg. in magic there are some energies that feel like an omnipresent sense of attention, moments where the universe blinks
Azarea: it’s conceptually kind of hard to fit that into an energy you can shape around like dough
Chirotractor: I mean… not really
Azarea: shrug I have trouble with it
Azarea: using psionics on things that have no locality is not easy for me
Rainsong: Even if they are the same stuff (and I’m not saying they are or are not), you can treat them as though they are not when it is convenient to do so
Rainsong: … in the same way that the oomph in the water-pipe version of grounding isn’t really water, but just treated as though it were
ceahhettan: Honestly I tend to be the energy is energy camp these days. There’s very little differentiation in how I work with psi vs how I work with external energies other than how soon I’ll need to drink orange juice.
Rainsong: Sometimes I treat them all the same, and sometimes I don’t, depending on what is most expedient at the time.
Rainsong: I could see differences between the types the Guild described. But other than the Void stuff, I didn’t worry about it much.
ceahhettan: Yeah. Alright, I need to be off to bed, if I can pry the kitten off me so I can go inside.
ceahhettan: Thanks, and good-night! Be well.
Rainsong: Safe travels, Ceah
Rainsong: Be well
Rainsong: Thanks for participating, everyone